Cosimo Fiaschi is a saxophonist and composer from Italy. He released duo album Reminiscenze with saxophonist Michał Biel on Zoomin’ Night. Zhu Wenbo did this interview with Cosimo about this album, multiphonics on saxophone and Renaissance music.

Z: Did you start learning to play the saxophone in Italy? How old were you then? Why did you choose the soprano saxophone as your instrument?

C: I started playing the saxophone at the age of 10, after a short experience with the clarinet. For many years I played the alto and the baritone then I moved towards the soprano in a very instinctive way until I felt other needs from an instrumental point of view.

Z: When did you start making the style of music you are doing now? What prompted or influenced you to choose your current musical direction?

C: As soon as I started to make music of my own, mostly improvised, I began to practice multiphonics and long-tones in a very sparse way. Even though I’m part of projects that involves other musical languages I’m pretty sure that these, as well as silence and space as a musical parameter, are my musical directions.

Z: When did you move to Denmark? Was it to study music? Can you tell us a little bit about what you specialised in at school? How did your major overlap or differ from the music you are doing now?

C: I spent only one year in Copenhagen. I choose that destination thanks to a professor (Torben Snekkestad) that was teaching there whose research resonated with me. Also the general policy of that school was very different from Italian’s institution: way more focused on production, with pro and cons. Even though I had wonderful teachers back in Italy, what I’ve studied in the bachelor has very little to do with what I’m doing now. For sure the best thing was the opportunity to get to know fellow students with whom I share similar interests.

Z: With the multiphonics of the saxophone, do you think it kind of varies from person to person in terms of technique and sound? Or is it something that can be trained into a very standardized sound (like in a marching band)? What are your personal experiences with this technique? Do you have any learning sources you can recommend?

C: For sure, given the instability and a certain sense of unpredictability of those sounds, there are great differences between the instruments, the conformation of the mouth,, the space in which you are playing as well as the surrounding sounds (if you are playing with someone else) and so on. But I guess that, in a way, you have to treat multiphonics as “standard sounds”. Even though the overall sound could be still perceived as “alien” the way of producing it is basically the same of regular tone or harmonics! What I mean is that the instrumentalist has to internalize, embodied those sounds, methodically. By doing so you will achieve the consciousness of their characteristics and you will be able to use them as a material with different approaches in different context. I can recommend a very good book: The Tecnique of Saxophone Playing by Giorgio Netti and Marcus Weiss . The authors have a very deep knowledge about this material and it is treated both from the composer prospective as well as the performer point of view. But, for a player that want to investigate the compositional potential within a single, acoustic sound source, I suggest to use it as a starting point to conduct further experiments.

Z: How did you and Michał Biel meet and start working together? What is your usual way of working together? Besides this album, do you have any other musical collaborations in other directions?

C: I met Michał through Francesco Toninelli. We had a quartet named Ensemble Ektòs (together with guitarist Hein Westgaard) for quite some time working on Wandelweiser repertoire as well as new music with a focus on contingency and silence. During my time in Copenhagen we recorded an album named Semèia Kài Tèrata released in ’22 by 901 Editions. I’m very fond about that release! Also, we were both part of Messe (You are where you need to be), a piece for large ensemble (21 musicians) lead by Calum Builder and published by ILK Music in ’21. It was a wonderful experience and, since we had three concerts in Denmark in winter ‘22 I took the opportunity to work with Michał on what became the second track of this tape.

Z: The two compositions on this tape were recorded in 2020 and 2022. Which piece is earlier? Are they both compositions from these different periods as well?

C: Yes, Reminiscenze was composed and played in 2020 and coda in 2022. As I wrote in the liner notes the aim of the pieces is to translate the sound quality of the voices of Renaissance music into acoustic saxophones through the use of multiphonics. Due to instability and intonation it was very challenging to find a final form. The process of making both pieces was very intense, with many trial and errors: what worked “on paper” did not sound at all as intended! So, together with Michał, we tried to find the overlap of multiphonics that create those choral phrases. In a way it was like trying to reach something very simple with a complex material. Of course, the result cannot be summed up by thinking exclusively of chords: it is a timbral event. The second piece was supposed to be much longer, with many other sections. In the the end I decided to maintain only the final part, the “coda”. In this sense the piece is like a “coda for a non existing piece”.

Z: Renaissance music is hundreds of years old, but the saxophone has a very short history, and the multiphonics is an even more modern extended technique. How did you come up with the idea of combining these two musical elements together? Do you also listen to a lot of Renaissance music in your daily life?

C: I think that the main reason could be traced by thinking about sound quality. If we take the second piece I have the feeling that the two soprano saxophones merges into one instrument. The blending between those sounds reminds me a lot about the sound quality of a group of four/five mixed voices. If we listen to that repertoire (especially in a recorded context) the internal part are very mysterious, almost indefinable: as the “shadows” of multiphonics. When I was thinking about those pieces I listened a lot of music from that period but, in the last year or so, I’m listening to something else.

Z: Where does this Renaissance music appear in Europe nowadays? Where else would people hear this music other than on CDs and at church events?

C: I have no idea! I had the chance to attend those concerts a few times (I’ve listen live the complete last madrigal’s book of Gesualdo). I think that for many reasons mostly concerning a specific idea of classical repertoire this music is basically forgotten by most of the people, also by many musicians that do not operate in that particular field.

Z: I have a feeling that re-examining Renaissance music (e.g., harmony, tonality, and its more ancient musical origins) seems to be a certain direction of interest and trend in contemporary experimental music. I don’t know if it’s just me. Do you think it is? If you think the answer is yes, what do you think about this phenomenon?

C: Yes, I think that too. Although it is quite common that “new music” digs into the past to find the forgotten or even the unheard, there is for sure a tendency to rediscover the Renaissance music (or medieval) in some contemporary music fields, both with modern or historical instruments. We can mention the label Discreet Editions, Early to Late by Frey and Granberg or Curva Triangulus by Lamb among the most significant work that I know in this direction. It is also interesting the renewed interest in different tuning systems like “just intonations”.

Z: Do you have any other future plans of this duo project?

C: Sure! I’m trying to find a place that is willing to host us for an artistic residency so that we can work on new materials. I cannot say much but what I have in mind a very different sound. I really hope that I can manage to make this happen!

Z: What do you do for a living? Is it possible to make a living in Europe by creating and performing this kind of music? Do you have other sources of income?

C: In the last couple of years or so I’ve been working in some music archives and I’ve been doing other intermittent jobs (plus the income for live concerts). I think that with only this musical approach (let’s call it experimental just for understand each other) it is very difficult. I’m not saying that it is impossible (maybe someone can do it) but, for sure, this cannot be an excuse to not try your best for the music you make. Most of the people find a teaching job or plays in very different musical context or find something completely unrelated to music.

Cosimo Fiaschi是一位意大利作曲家，萨克斯手。燥眠夜出版了他和Michał Biel的萨克斯二重奏专辑Reminiscenze。朱文博和Cosimo做了这个采访，他们聊这张专辑，以及萨克斯的多音演奏技巧和文艺复兴时代的音乐。

Z：你是在意大利开始学习演奏萨克斯的吗？那时候你多大？为什么选择了高音萨克斯这件乐器？

C：我从10岁开始演奏萨克斯。在那之前我短暂地吹过单簧管。有很多年我都是演奏中音和上低音萨克斯。后来我从乐器的角度感受到了其它需求，于是本能地转向了高音萨克斯。

Z：你是从什么时候开始做现在的这种风格的音乐的？是否有什么契机？

C：在我开始做自己的音乐的时候——那时候主要是即兴——我开始很零散地练习长音和多音技巧。尽管我所在的音乐项目主要是其它音乐语言，但我也很明确地知道，上述这些以及作为音乐参数而存在的寂静与空间，是我的音乐方向。

Z：你是在哪一年搬到丹麦的？是去学习音乐吗？你可以介绍一下你在学校里的音乐专业方向吗？你的专业和你现在在做的音乐有什么重合或不同的地方？

C：我在哥本哈根只待了一年。去那里学习是因为一位教授（Torben Snekkestad），他的探索方向我非常感同身受。学校的体制与意大利很不一样，这边会更注重于制作，有利有弊吧。虽然我在意大利也有很好的老师，不过我在本科所学习的内容对于我现在在做的音乐没什么帮助。当然，在丹麦最好的事情是，我能够认识一些和我有同样兴趣的伙伴和同学。

Z：萨克斯的多音演奏技巧（multiphonics），你觉得它是一种因人而异的技巧与声音吗？还是它可以通过训练成为一种非常标准化的声音（类似像是在军乐队里的声音那样）？对于这种演奏技巧，你有怎样的个人经验？或者，你有没有什么学习渠道可以推荐？

C：当然，这种声音有一些不稳定性和不可预测性，因为乐器、嘴部形状、演奏空间以及周围声音（如果您与他人一起演奏）的不同都会给你的演奏带来很大差异。但我想，在某种程度上，你必须将多音技巧视为一种“标准声音”。即使整体的声音可能仍很“陌生”，但它的产生方式与常规的音或泛音基本是一样的！我的意思是，乐器演奏者必须有条不紊地消化理解并展示这些声音。通过这样的方式，你将认识到它们的特点，并能够在不同的环境中以不同的方法将其作为材料来使用。我可以推荐一本非常好的书：《The Tecnique of Saxophone Playing》（作者：Giorgio Netti / Marcus Weiss）。作者对这种技巧有很深入的了解，并从作曲家和演奏者的角度对其进行了处理。但是，如果一位演奏者想要探寻这种单音原声乐器作为声源的作曲潜力，我建议将这些作为起点，进行进一步的实验。

Z：你和Michał Biel是怎样认识并开始合作的？你们的合作方式通常是怎样的？除了这张专辑所展示的，你们是否还有其它方向的音乐合作？

C：我通过Francesco Toninelli认识了Michał。我们这些人还有吉他手Hein Westgaard有一个四重奏项目Ensemble Ektòs。我们花了一些时间研究Wandelweiser的作品，还有其它一些关注于偶发与寂静的新音乐作品。在我还在哥本哈根的时候我们录了一张专辑《Semèia Kài Tèrata》，2022年在 901 Editions出版，我很引以为豪的一张。

我俩也参与了专辑《Messe (You are where you need to be)》的录制，这是Calum Builder的作品，21位乐手组成的大乐团，2021年在ILK Music出版，很棒的经历。这个项目在2022年冬天在丹麦进行了三场演出，我也借此机会和Michał再次合作，录了现在这个磁带里的第二首。

Z：这张磁带里的两首作品分别是2020和2022年的录音。哪一首更早一些？它们也都是这些不同时期的创作吗？

C：是不同时期的作品。《Reminiscenze》的创作和录音都是2020年，而《coda》都是在2022年。就像我在介绍里写的那样，这两首作品都是希望通过多音演奏技巧的方式，将文艺复兴时代的人声音乐的质感转化到原声的萨克斯上面。

Z：文艺复兴时期的音乐是几百年前的音乐了，但是萨克斯的历史很短，而多音技巧更是一个很现代的延展技巧。你是怎样想到要把这两种音乐元素结合到一起的？在日常的生活里，你也会听很多文艺复兴时期的音乐吗？

C：我觉得其中最主要的原因是对于声音质感的思考。举例专辑的第二个作品来说，会感觉两支高音萨克斯融会成了一间乐器。这种声音的混合质感会让我联想起四五个人声混在一起的那种声音。如果我们仔细来听这些合唱曲目（尤其是通过录音这种媒介），会发现其内部非常的神秘，就像是多音演奏技巧中的“阴影”一样。我在构思我的这些作品的时候听了很多那段时期的音乐，不过最近几年我在听别的东西了。

Z：在现在的欧洲，这些文艺复兴时期的音乐会出现在什么地方？除了在CD中，以及教堂的活动中，人们还会在哪里听到这些音乐？

C：我也不知道！我有机会参加过几次这样的演出（我曾在现场听过杰苏阿尔多的最后的牧歌的完整演绎）。我想，出于多种原因——主要是对这些古典音乐曲目的特定理解——这种音乐基本上被大多数人遗忘了，包括许多不从事该领域工作的音乐家。

Z：我有一个感觉是，重新研究文艺复兴时期的音乐（比如和声、调律以及其更古早的音乐起源）似乎是当代实验音乐里的某一个兴趣与潮流方向。不知道是不是我的错觉。你觉得是这样吗？如果你认为答案是肯定的，你对这个现象是怎样看？

C：是的，我也这样认为。尽管“新音乐”挖掘过去，寻找被遗忘甚至未曾听过的音乐已是司空见惯，但在一些当代音乐领域，无论是使用现代乐器还是历史悠久的乐器，确实存在着重新发现文艺复兴音乐（或中世纪音乐）的趋势。我们可以想到的有厂牌Discreet Editions，Jürg Frey和Magnus Granberg的专辑《Early to Late》，Catherine Lamb的专辑《Curva Triangulus》，这些都是我能想到的在这一方向中最有代表性的作品。同样有意思的是，人们也对不同的调律系统（如 “纯律”）重新产生了兴趣。

Z：你和Michał的二重奏在之后是否还有别的计划？

C：当然！我希望能找到一个地方支持我们做艺术驻地，这样我们可以一起做一些东西。目前我还说不了太多，但在我的想法里会有非常不一样的声音。我希望这些都可以发生。

Z：你靠什么来生活？创作并演奏这样的音乐在欧洲可以谋生吗？你是否还有别的收入渠道？

C：在过去几年里我做了一些音乐档案的工作，还有其他一些断断续续的工作（现场演出也会有一些收入）。我认为如果只是做这一类音乐（方便理解起见，我们称其为实验音乐）会非常困难的。我不是说这是不可能的（可能有人是可以的），不过这也不应成为你不尽力做自己的音乐的一种借口。很多人会去教课，去演奏完全不同的音乐，或是和音乐完全无关的工作。