Noah Ophoven-Baldwin is a musician living in Minneapolis. His band Realtree released their second full-length album on Zoomin’ Night. Zhu Wenbo did an interview with Noah before the cassette’s publishing.
Zhu: Maybe you could introduce Realtree at the beginning of this interview. When and where did this quintet start? Could you still remember any process? How did the name come from? Have the line-up been changed?
Noah: I started writing music for Realtree in 2016. The first iteration of the group was a quartet with a vocalist, Michelle Kinney on Cello and Patrick Marschke was playing drums and cymbals instead of laptop. The music was significantly different, relying on meter and interlocking rhythms to coordinate events. I wanted more moments in the music where very little was happening but I still wanted things to be synchronized. I found that using a timer for this worked really well. Later on Carley and Adam were added to the group.
Zhu: From Splendor Falls on Everything Around to Shake the Hourglass About, all pieces you played were composed by yourself. Do you think “playing Noah’s composition” is a target to Realtree? Do you also spend some time on performing other composer’s piece or improvisation?
Noah: I started the band to work on my compositions. Before Realtree there were a few other groups that I had started but they just didn’t stick the way this ensemble did. I love writing music for these particular musicians and this instrumentation.
We are planning to take some time to rehearse and perform other composer’s music in the future. I have schemes to ask a couple musicians to write music for the band and release some “Realtree plays so-and-so” projects.
Zhu: So you could talk about your second album Shake the Hourglass About, maybe also the former one. For compositions or recording techs, do you think there are any differences between these two albums? Do they have different concerns?
Noah: With our second album I think I was trying to work on instrumentation relationships within the band. Our first album had a lot of meticulous full group compositions and the improvising was broken into smaller groups. I think here we did the opposite. In Shake the Hourglass About there are very precise small ensemble pieces and a lot of the improvising space was with the full band.
There is an element of fellowship in recording small ensemble pieces when the whole band is present. I think we all get to listen and enjoy what everyone else is doing. During the recording we were all sitting in the room while others played their things. It felt good and supportive.
Zhu: Something about monophonic, you have mentioned to me on your music. Compare to the former album, to me I felt that you guys were trying to dig more on monophonic in Shake the Hourglass About. I hope I did not make mistake. How did monophonic appeal to you? Is there any musician or composer giving you influence or inspirations on it? Maybe I’m not an expert, but I don’t feel that monophonic is in the main exploration directions to nowadays experimental music scene?
Noah: Initially I wanted to explore monophony because it seemed like a very effective compositional restraint that fit into my process of generating pitch material. After trying it out a bit I was happy with how the music is able to expand around the written notes because the material is so distilled. I think the idea of monophonic is expanded a bit with our playing: There are times when it’s unison like chant or something but it’s also hocketing like medieval motets and performing a single melody together split into separate notes like a bell choir. The improvising is affected too. I think we interact differently when we perform a piece where we are doing our separate little things and then play free. When we play a monophonic piece and improvise in it it’s like there is a unified idea we are working at.
I think Tom Johnson, Sacred Harp and Sachiko M had some influence.
Zhu: Except to quintet, there are also other different line-ups in this album including duo, trio, quartet and solo. So will you write scores specially for a detailed line-up? Or maybe I guess you prefer to divide “writing compositions” and “presentation” into different layers (because I feel that monophonic really fit this way maybe)?
Noah: The instrumentation for a composition often comes first. Sometimes it’s as simple as looking at where the music will be texturally, what range the pitches are in and deciding what instruments can perform what and how. In certain cases, which often coincide with the longer full band pieces, the composition comes first, all the notes and form and such, then I arrange it for the band.
Zhu: To Realtree’s work, how much could a musician do improvisation?
Noah: Most of the music here is improvised. That being said, there is a composed framework for the entirety of each piece. There are sections that are thoroughly notated but each performer is deciding how to use the material in each moment. The written elements serve the improvising space.
Technically, in many of my scores, any of the musicians could decide the notation is unnecessary or not serving the music and improvise the entire time (or not play at all I guess). In practice, however, the notes are usually performed.
Zhu: There are some big names in this new album: Bart Howard, Miles Davis, Akira Ifukube, and maybe could also adding Duke Ellington because He Loves Him Madly was dedicated to him by MD. But actually we can’t find any similarities from your music to those classic pieces. And you don’t think you have made “cover tracks”, either. So how did you compose them? What kinds of relationship between these tracks and the “original” ones? Why did you choose these pieces? Did the jazz standard and classic movie theme make influences to you on your growing up?
Noah: Realtree compositions are primarily reorganized past Realtree performances or field recordings that I have made. I transcribe and use moments from recordings as building blocks for new compositions. For this album I wanted to try a similar approach but taking the songs, especially their literal timing (timelines, timescales, harmonic/gestural rhythms), as “found objects” or “palimpsests”. He Loved Him Madly by Miles Davis is a good example of that. If you played some sections of this with the actual song, He Loved Him Madly, it would sound almost synchronized.
A lot of the material choices seem to fall under the theme of “swords to plowshares” and probably more specifically the Plowshares movement (an anti-nuclear weapon and pacifist movement) in the USA. It must have been on my mind while I was putting everything together. Fly Me to the Moon and the Godzilla theme relate to the existential threat of nuclear war a bit. The Duke Ellington thing (I rest my head beneath the piano to never forget the sound is also DE related) loosely connects the covers and the other compositions which use a lot of St. Therese of Lisieux and Gene Wolfe texts as sources for compositions. Not that the music is about any of this but that’s what I was sourcing it from.
Zhu: And some questions about field recordings. Both of these albums contain some short and quiet field recording pieces. Someone make field recordings as an element to their compositions, and some other people believe that field recording could be as a way of composition. How do think about these? In Realtree’s albums, how did you make arrangement on these field recording pieces? Do you have the habit of recording by phone at any time? Why did you choose these recordings to albums but not the others?
Noah: Field recordings play a role throughout the writing process. I use them to gather and arrange ideas or as pieces themselves. When I use them to arrange ideas I extract little sections, transcribe them and arrange them out for the band. Because the recordings are a substantial part of my writing process I have a consistent habit of recording (usually using my phone) everyday.
As far as the actual field recordings that make it onto the album go, I usually end up finding a few things while working on Realtree stuff that are strong enough to be presented as plan-and-simple recordings.
Zhu: You have mentioned to me that the album is about “love”. It is really a difficult thing for me to understand. Because to me I feel that, experimental music is more calm and cold, including Realtree; but “love” is more on passion and emotion, maybe more close to pop music. Of course, there are also many counter-examples, and I don’t want to make arbitrary conclusions. So, what do you think? What kind of mood did you in during the creating time?
Noah: I totally understand. I have a hard time believing any of this stuff is about anything in particular. It’s better if it isn’t! Throughout working and recording on the music I started a family and I couldn’t stop thinking about my partner or my future child. I was just so damn happy. I realized I was not alone: I thought of Bill Dixon’s Fancy Footwork #1 & #2 (you can hear his kid’s voice in these songs), my friends’ art practices (their child is always showing up in it!), Ornette talking about playing with his son Denardo when he was a child. I don’t know if the album is about love but I was definitely distracted while working on it.
Realtree 的第二张专辑《Shake the Hourglass About 摇晃沙漏》在燥眠夜出版。这是一个美国明尼阿波利斯的五重奏，包括 Carley Olson Kokal (单簧管), Michelle Kinney (大提琴), Adam Zahller (吉他), Patrick Marschke (笔记本电脑), Noah Ophoven-Baldwin (短号)。
Realtree 的作品是一种，不是很难进入，但的确不容易理解的音乐。你不难感受到这些曲目和那些“经典”音乐的连接（经典的爵士乐，经典的即兴音乐，经典的当代xx音乐……），但又有着距离，好像和哪边都有断层。这种感觉是“熟悉的陌生人”吗？或许更像是“感觉陌生的熟人”吧！
还有，专辑里有两段非常短的实地录音是怎么回事，这不是一张“作曲专辑”吗？当然实地录音也可以成为作曲，但似乎这个想法如果出现在一个演奏乐器的团体里，那还是有点奇怪……
带着这些疑问，在筹备这张专辑的发行工作时，朱文博和 Realtree 的主创 Noah Ophoven-Baldwin 进行了一次采访。希望访谈可以帮助大家更多理解 Realtree 的音乐。
朱：可以先来介绍一下Realtree。这个五人组是什么时候开始组建的？你还记得其中的过程是怎样的吗？你们有更换过成员吗？
Noah：我从2016年开始为 Realtree 创作音乐。最初的阵容是一个四重奏，有一个歌手，Michelle Kinney 演奏大提琴，Patrick Marschke 那时候是鼓手，而不是演奏笔记本电脑。那时候的音乐和现在显然是不一样的，那时候主要是通过节拍以及连锁的节奏来引导整个的音乐走向。我希望在音乐中可以有更多这样的时刻：很少的发生，但却是同步地进行。我发现可以通过使用计时器使其得以实现。后来 Carley 和 Adam 也加入了 Realtree。
朱：在Realtree的两张专辑里，所演奏的作品都是你的作曲。这是Realtree的一个目标吗？你们也会花一些时间去演奏其他人的作曲或者是即兴演奏吗？
Noah：我做这个乐队就是来演奏我的作曲。在 Realtree 之前我也参与过别的团体，但他们不像Realtree这样坚持了下来。我喜欢为这些特定的乐手和配器来创作音乐。
未来我们也计划花一些时间来排练演奏其他作曲家的作品。我有想过邀请一些乐手来为我们写作品，然后做一些《Realtree 演奏谁谁谁》这样的出版。
朱：可以请你来讲讲第二张专辑，或许也需要讲讲第一张专辑。从创作或是录音的方式上，这两张专辑是否有怎样的不同？它们是否有不同的关注内容？
Noah：在我们的第二张专辑中，我尝试在乐队的配器关系上进行尝试。在我们的第一张作品中有很多细致的全员作曲作品，而即兴被切割到更小的组合中。但现在我们反过来了。在《摇晃沙漏》这张专辑中有一些精细的小团体作品，反而给全员作品留下了更多的即兴空间。
即使是在录制这些小团体作品时，我们也是全员在场的。我们都坐在房间里，但其中只有一部分人在演奏。这种感觉很好，可以感受到支持。
朱：可以讲一讲“单音旋律”。我会感觉，相比起你们的前一张，你们在第二张专辑中对“单音旋律”这种音乐形式进行了更多的探索，不知道我是否对。这样的音乐是怎样吸引你的？是否有哪些音乐人/作曲家影响了你在这方面的口味？或许我不是专家，但我感觉这种主题并不在当下实验音乐的主要探索方向中？
Noah：最初我想要探索单音旋律是因为它似乎是一种很有效的作曲限制，很契合我产生音高素材的过程。经过一些尝试之后，我很开心地发现音乐是可以如何根据这些写定的音符来进行扩展的，因为这些素材都已足够精炼。我想单音旋律的概念也在我们的演奏中得到扩展：有时它像是吟唱，但也可以像是中世纪的合唱或是手铃乐团这样的形式，很多人一起演奏一个单一的旋律，但每个人其实是拆分到不同的音符。即兴也从中受到了影响。我们有这样的作品，大家都演奏小段落，然后是自由演奏，这时候我们的互动会很不同。当我们演奏单音旋律并在其中即兴的时候，就好像有一个统一的理念。
我想应该有一些来自 Tom Johnson，神圣竖琴（Sacred Harp，一种无伴奏合唱形式），Sachiko M 的影响。
朱：在五重奏之外，在这张专辑里有不同的成员组合形式：二重奏，三重奏，独奏，四重奏。你会为特别的人员配置来写不同的曲目吗？还是说你更偏向于将“写作”与“呈现”分作是不同的层面（因为我猜“单音旋律”会很适合这样）。
Noah：一首曲目的配器形式通常会先出来。有时候就是简单地想想看想要让音乐有怎样的纹理，音高的范围，然后就可以来决定来使用怎样的乐器，演些什么，怎样演奏。也有某些情况会是作曲整个先出来，包括所有的音符、结构这些的，通常这都会是比较长的全员作品，然后我会为乐队进行编排。
朱：在Realtree的作品里，乐手可以即兴的成分有多少？
Noah：这里的大多数音乐都是即兴的。意思是，每一首作品都有一个作曲的结构。有些部分即使已经有了很完整的记谱，但每个乐手还是可以在当下决定如何使用这些素材。这些写下的部分是为即兴空间服务的。
从技术层面来讲，在我的很多作品中乐手可以决定这些记谱对于音乐是否有必要，也可以对于时长进行即兴（或者我猜，也可以根本不演奏）。不过在实践中这些音符通常都会被演奏。
朱：在这张专辑中我们看到了一些前辈大师的名字。Bart Howard（爵士标准曲“Fly Me to the Moon”的作者）, Miles Davis, Akira Ifukube（为哥斯拉电影创作音乐），或许还应当加上Duke Ellington，因为MD的“He loves him madly”是一首向他致敬的作品。但事实上这些曲目里很难发现这些经典曲目的影子，你也不认为这是翻玩曲目。所以，来讲讲这几首曲目吧，它们是怎样创作的？它们和原曲到底有怎样的关系？你为什么选择了这些曲目？在你长大的过程中，有来自这些经典爵士乐/电影原声的影响吗？
Noah：Realtree 的作曲主要是对我们之前的演出以及我所做的实地录音的重组。通过对于原始的录音片段的转录与重新使用，使其成为新作品的构建部分。在这张专辑中我想要尝试相似的方式，但是是将歌曲作为“拾得物品”或是“重写副本”来使用——尤其是它们字面意义上的时间（时间线、时间尺度、合声/手势节奏）。“He Loved Him Madly by Miles Davis”就是很好的一个例子，如果你将其中一些段落和原曲“He Loved Him Madly”一起播放会发现，它们是同步的。
更多的素材原则其实是源自于“铸剑为篱（swords to plowshares）”这个主题，或者更确切的说，是美国的犁头运动（Plowshares movement，一个反核武器的和平主义运动）。当我把这些放置在一起的时候，这些想法就出现在我的脑中。“Fly Me to the Moon”和哥斯拉主题曲多少都和核战的存在主义威胁有一些关联。
艾灵顿公爵也可以算是一种素材来源，“I rest my head beneath the piano to never forget the sound”这首其实也是和他有关；类似的使用还有圣女小德兰（St. Therese of Lisieux）和吉恩·沃尔夫 (Gene Wolfe)的文本。音乐并没有和他们有关，但我以此作为素材的来源。
朱：还有来自实地录音的问题。两张专辑里都有一些短小安静的实地录音曲目。有些人会将实地录音看作是一种作曲，有人会在作曲里融入实地录音的元素。不知道你是怎么看？这些实地录音曲目是怎么设计的？你有随时用手机录些声音的习惯吗？为什么选了这些录音，而不是什么别的？
Noah：实地录音在音乐的写作过程中会起到一些作用。我用它们来收集组织一些想法，或直接就使用它们。如果是前者，我会选取小的段落，将其转化成乐谱。录音是我写作过程里很重要的一部分，所以我养成了习惯随时录音（使用手机）。
至于收录在专辑里的实地录音，通常是我在为 Realtree 工作的时候，最终发现的一些东西。它们很强烈，足够以一种简单清晰的样貌来呈现。
朱：你曾和我提到过，这张专辑是关于“爱”。这是我挺难理解的一个事情，因为我会觉得，实验音乐是更冷静一些的音乐，Realtree 的音乐也是这样，然而“爱”是非常热情的，情绪化的，或许和流行音乐的关系更近一些。当然其中也有很多的反例，我也不想武断地下定论了，所以，你到底是怎么想的？你能回想起创作这些曲目的时候，你的心绪吗？
Noah：我非常明白。我也曾有段时间没法相信这些东西是关于某个具体的事的。如果没有的话那会是更好！不过在创作和录制这些音乐的时候我组建了家庭，我无法不去考虑我的伴侣和我未来的孩子。我那时特别的高兴，我意识到我不是孤独的。我想起 Bill Dixon 的“Fancy Footwork #1 & #2”（其中你可以听到他孩子的声音），我的朋友们的艺术实践（他们的孩子总是参与其中），Ornette Coleman 谈论他的儿子 Denardo，在他还是孩子的时候他们就一起演奏。我不知道这张专辑是否是关于爱，但我在创作过程中的确分神于此。