To support the release 2527, Zhu Wenbo and Zhu Songjie did an interview with Takashi Masubuchi.
Q: Maybe you could introduce yourself first. How old are you? When did you start playing guitar, and when did you start playing this kind of music? I mean, quiet, with blank and some special skills, beautiful improvisation music.
I was born in 1984. I have been living in Tokyo since I was born.I started playing guitar when I was in junior high school. I don’t remember why started.Maybe I wasn’t interested in anything else. Pelktopia that I played with Hironobu Shimazawa is my first carrier to play this kind of music as you say. We had been playing for 2 or 3 years and released some LP, CD-R, and cassettes. This unit played by half composition and half improvisation with Folk, Blues, and Minimalism feeling.We had a common language of music and similar aesthetic sense for sound.So we were able to develop music constructively. I still think the music in this unit was great.Many of my ideas for improvisation were born at this time. After that, I started to play as a solo player. At the beginning of my solo career, I was playing drone music with many pedals. But I think this was a big failure for me. I was just turning the knob and just fun pedal’s effect. It is the best way to fill in time and space. But that’s just it. I got too far away from my roots and physical myself. I felt I had to create the sound more fundamentally in a primitive way. It was around 2015 that I started to have the current style.
Q: Before playing this kind of music, what kind of music did you play? What kind of chance made you decide to change at that time?
First. I started playing as an electric guitarist in some bands, I mean something like a Rock’n’Roll guitarist. I guess every guitarist will yearn for it when young. At the same time, I was obsessed with a lot of black music. especially I love Blues like John lee hooker and Son House. I learned what is free for me back then and making space in music from them. I was also absorbed in jazz and copied mainly Wes Montgomery and learn the method by self-taught. But I couldn’t play it properly. Also, I felt cramped in the chordal system. I feel that It was a necessary experience to identify what is important for me. But I eventually stopped playing in band and electric guitar. Because I felt it is difficult to play primitively and genuinely. I felt dishonesty with electric instruments my own. I want to be physically involved in my instrument without any knobs and cables. Fortunately, I don’t get tired of playing acoustic guitar. There are still many discoveries from playing.
Q: Maybe you could share some details about guitar. Do you have any special or personal interests on guitar playing? Such as special tuning, microtone, objects on preparing, or some other special playing skill…..
I have been trying many open and irregular tuning. Thereby I can find a new sound and resonance from the guitar. I’m really into my main guitar which is Martin D-28 Authentic 1931. I want to bring out all the possibilities of this guitar. Sometimes, I try a prepared guitar and some objects. For example, I was rubbing a metal bar on the fret to make overtone and drone on 2527’s Track2. But my main focus is playing by fingers of both hands just normally. This is the best way to express subtle elements.
Q: Most of your performances are improvisation. What do you think about in improvisation concert? Or maybe the question could be, what do you try to keep the notice on normally in your performance?
I’m thinking about “music” When I play as a solo.I mean like phrase, scale…or Whether I’m doing well what I practiced. especially I am interested in polymodal. I want to combine some scales to connect to song myself or something like a story. Free or not free, something new or already done in the past. these are not big subjects for me. These are meaningless to think about. Because I feel like a dead-end no matter where I go. I think it should be democratic when I play with other players, like our social ideals. We have to construct something good through conversation in music. As many say. a really good situation is not to think anything during performance.
Q: What kind of music do you listen when you are driving? Last time I took your car, you played Morton Feldman’s piano box. But don’t you think Feldman is too quiet for traffic?
No. I don’t think so. My car is very quiet. It’s easy to listen to Feldman’s music.
Q: So maybe you could share us your music taste. What is all-time favorites? Maybe you could give us a top 10 choice. And what do you listen in these days?
This includes music that I don’t listen to anymore. But I listened to often. In order I listened 1「Electric Ladyland」Jimi Hendrix 2「Live at Sugarhill」John Lee Hooker 3「Original Delta Blues」Son House 4「The Complete Live At The Plugged Nickel 1965」Miles Davis 5「Olatunji Concert 」John Coltrane 6 「Riley: The Harp Of New Albion」Terry Riley 7 「In Bern」Loren Mazzacane Connors + Jim O’rouke 8 「Semi-Impressionism」Tetuzi Akiyama + Toshimaru Nakamura 9「For Bunita Marcus by Stephane Ginsburgh」Morton Feldman 10「Dead Pan Smiles」Riuichi Daijo
My recent favorite is below. Some of them are not recent releases.
「Bending Contumax」Jean-Luc Guionnet Jean-Luc Guionnet is saxophonist and organist. I didn’t know him until recently. this is amazing enormous work by improvisation from 2008 to 2014. I feel this is very structural in spite of early intention feeling. Published by No School Recordings run by Masahiko Okura.
「Memoria」Takumi Akaishi Takumi Akaishi is a Hardy Gurdy player who lives in Tokyo is very unique. This was made from Hardy Gurdy and field recording with his great poetic sense. Published by Art Into Life, a Japanese record shop and label in Tochigi prefecture.
「Œuvres Électroniques」 Eliane Radigue This was bought during my 2019 European Tour in Basel at Plattfon Records. This is a box of 14CD. You can know her pursuit of sound but need time to listen to everything!!
Q: Please tell about Straytone. You told me that you have a long and deep collaborations with him. How many years did you play together? What is the collaboration based on? Compare to other musicians, is there any special meanings of playing with Straytone to you?
We have a different idea about music and playing. Straytone attaches importance to the context in music more than me.I’m gradually becoming less concerned about context. On the other hand. I think He does not attach importance to improvisation more than me. We can complement each other for making music.
Q: The cassette remind me of Tetuzi & Toshimaru. Actually at the first time I saw your performance I found out Tetuzi’s influence. And for Straytone’s sound, I have to say, it is very closed to Toshi’s nowadays sound, though they use different instruments. I think in this cassette, Straytone’s sound does not sounds like most modular synthesizer musicians. So how do you think about Tetuzi & Toshimaru? Do you try to reference, borrow or avoid some idea from this classical Japanese duo?
I think that Tetuzi Akiyama and Toshimaru Nakamura are The most important improviser.「Semi-Impressionism」is the earliest music I’ve ever heard of improvisation music that’s not jazz. This is my opinion on them. In particular, I was directly influenced by Tetuzi Akiyama as guitarist. His greatness is flipped over the concept of all avant-garde. It’s like a dadaist but more based on his intuition and honesty. Toshimaru Nakamura is a very important person culturally of electronics improvisation scene. But he does not hesitate to break the culture himself and constantly update himself. He seems to be challenging himself at every concert without any attention to appearance. They play universal language and techniques in spite of based on very personal interest without systematized academic methods. They paved the way by this attitude especially for players without musical education or career. There have been groups with similar concepts in the past like AMM or Musica Elettronica Viva. But they are based on more western values or academism.
In the past, if we want to play with someone we had to learn the methods and languages that are already. Like Jazz, Classic also Rock music. Maybe It’s also included “Free Improvisation”. But They proved that we could play using each personal interests, techniques, and ideas without systematized academic methods or languages. It doesn’t mean there is no need to learn or practice. We got an environment that we can pursue what we feel really important to us individually. At the same time, we can communicate in music in any country, musical background, and culture. We can express each identity and exchange ideas in the music directly.
Q: The cassette title is 2527. What did the name come from?
It is a secret.
Q: Please also tell us about Permian, the venue you run. Could you describe it? How is the neighborhood and how does it looks inside? When did you start running this place? Why do you want to run a “only improvisation” venue? Sorry that I have never been to Permian before, next time I will, I promise!
Permian started in 2018. Running by me,Riuichi Daijo and some musicians. We often talked about almost venues have a lot of superfluous things for the concert. like bar counter, records, and BGM. We don’t provide any drink, food, and BGM to concentrate on the concert and playing. An audience can choose admission fees between 1,000 to 3,000yen of every concert. By this, the audience can determine the value of the concert with independence. There are many cafes and bars nearby. But finding an improvisational audience is difficult. Improvisation is primordial practice and starting point of all expressions. It is should be open to more people. I hope that we always try to re-grab music from zero by each concert.
Q: If you have to choose 3 favorite improvisation musicians, who will it be?
Tetuzi Akiyama John Tilbury John Coltrane
Q: In the description I found about your album “R, R, R”, it was mentioned that some of your guitar playing has the feeling of John Fahey. Do you agree with this statement? Has John Fahey’s music influenced your listening and playing?
Of course, I listened to a lot of albums of John Fahey. But I’ve almost never copied his guitar. I am strongly influenced by what is called American Primitive, just like him. But I think I’m not the same lineage or context as him. I have big respect for traditional music but maybe I’m not interested in inheriting. It’s not my role. As I said, I copied a lot of guitar from the 60’s Rock group, Blues and Jazz music when I played electric guitar. But my acoustic guitar style is Almost self-taught.I’ve almost never copied someone’s play except some Blues. Sometimes, I try to copy Morton Feldman’s piano piece by guitar.
Q: Are you more focused or relaxed when you play? Do you think there is a big gap between your performance and recording? In which state(relaxed or focused) do you prefer when making music?
To be honest, I want to relax and play. If I try to concentrate, the feeling runs away.
第一次见增渊显史是2017年，去东京远郊的一个美术馆看浦裕幸的作曲，他是那天的乐手之一。看了一会儿就知道，他是那种特别符合我对于“年轻一代日本新即兴乐手”的想象：使用基础的原声乐器，演奏技巧扎实，含蓄内敛，又刚劲。承接着早年间声响派一代的空白美学，我的意思是，空白，又美。当然，随着我结识了更多的日本乐手，我知道我的这种“年轻一代日本新即兴乐手”的想象肯定是片面的，但这不妨碍他成为我非常喜爱的一位日本同龄人。
增渊显史是一个高个子。他演奏原声吉他，有的时候会用一支麦克风扩音，有的时候不用，就是用吉他最原始的声音。总是可以在 Ftarri, Otooto, Permian 这些关注安静的空白的日本即兴音乐的场地里见到他，他也是 Permian 的运作者之一，这是一个“只演奏即兴音乐”的场地。2018 年他发行了一张独奏CD 《R, R, R》，有段时间那就我家里的 BGM。（朱文博）
采访：朱文博&朱松杰 翻译：朱松杰
提问：也许可以先介绍下你自己。你现在多大了？是什么时候开始弹吉他的，以及什么时候开始演奏这种音乐的？我指的是这种，安静的，有一些空白和特殊技巧，又非常美的即兴音乐。
我生于1984年。我自出生以来就一直生活在东京。最早开始弹吉他是我在初中的时候。我记不得是因为什么了，也许是因为我对其他事情都不感兴趣。
我最早开始演奏你描述的那类音乐，是在我在和嶋澤ヒロノブと一起组建的 Pelktopia 的时候。我们一起演奏了2到3年，发行了一些 LP、CD-R 和磁带。这个乐队的演奏内容是半作曲半即兴的，带有民谣、布鲁斯和极简音乐的元素。
我们在声音美学和音乐上都有很多共同语言，所以我们能一起有建设性地创作音乐。我仍然认为这个组合所做的音乐是非常棒的。许多我关于即兴的点子都是在这个时期诞生的。
自那之后，我开始作为一名独奏表演者演出。在刚开始独奏的时候，我会用很多单块效果器来演奏长音音乐。但就我自身而言，那是个很大的失败。我只是在拨弄旋钮，从单块的效果里找乐子。那是最好的填满空间和时间的方式，但也仅此而已。我走得离自己的根基和身体太远了。我得以原始的方式来发出更加基础的声音。
我大概是从2015年开始演奏现在这样风格的音乐的。
提问：在这之前，你演奏的是什么样的音乐？是什么原因促使你发生转变的？
最开始，我在一些乐队里弹电吉他，我指的是类似摇滚乐吉他手。我猜每个吉他手在年轻的时候都渴望于此。同时，我也痴迷于许多黑人音乐，尤其是像 John Lee Hooker 和 Son House 那样的布鲁斯。那时的我从他们身上学到了自由，以及在音乐中如何制造空间。同时我也被爵士乐所吸引，自学着模仿 Wes Montgomery 的演奏方式。但我没法正确地弹奏爵士，而且我在和声系统里感觉处处受限。但我觉得这样的经验是必要的，这让我确认了什么才是对自己来说重要的。但我最终停止了在乐队里演奏电吉他，因为我觉得自己很难以原始和真诚的方式去演奏。我觉得自己并不忠于电声乐器。我想要更加身体性地参与进乐器，而不是通过任何旋钮和接线。
幸运的是，我并没有疲于演奏原声吉他。我从中依然不断有新的发现。
提问：也许你可以分享一些关于吉他的细节？你有某种特定的或个人的吉他演奏兴趣吗？比如说特殊的调音、微分音、演奏工具、预制系统或是特殊的演奏技巧……抱歉我不是一个 guitar geek，但是我希望能翻译好你的回答。
我试过许多种开放调弦和非常规的调音方式，借此我可以从吉他上发现新的声音和共鸣。我非常喜欢我的主力吉他，那是把马丁的 D-28 Authentic 1931 复刻。我想要探索这把吉他中所有的可能性。
有时，我会尝试演奏预制吉他以及其他一些物件。比如，我在《2527》的第二首曲子里通过在指板上摩擦金属来发出泛音和长音。
但我通常主要的兴趣都在于通过双手的手指来演奏。这是最好的表达精细元素的方式。
提问：你的大多数表演都是即兴的。你在即兴演出的时候想的都是什么？或者说，换一种问法，你在演出的时候一般都会留意些什么？
当我在独奏时，所想的是“音乐”。我的意思是乐句、音阶……或者我是否好好演奏出了自己所练习的内容。我对多调式的音乐特别感兴趣。我想要通过混合音阶的方式来表达自己，或是传递某种故事。
自由或不自由？是新鲜的还是以前曾经做过的？对我来说这都不是大问题。去思考这些事是没有意义的。因为我觉得无论是哪个方向，最后都会通向死胡同。
我认为当我和别人合奏的时候，那种关系应当是民主的，就像我们的社会理想一样。我们要在音乐中通过对话创造些好的东西。正如许多人所说，演奏时极佳的情境是什么都不去想。
提问：你开车的时候会听什么音乐？上次我坐你车的时候，你放的是 Morton Feldman 的钢琴套装。你不觉得 Feldman 的音乐在通勤时会显得太过安静吗？
我不觉得。我的车里很安静，在里面听Feldman的音乐并不难。
提问：那么，可以和我们分享下你的音乐喜好吗？你的私人最爱有那些？也许可以给出个十佳榜单？以及你最近在听什么？
这里面包括一些我不会再去听，但曾经听了许多遍的音乐：
依序排列如下：
1《Electric Ladyland》Jimi Hendrix
2《Live at Sugarhill》John Lee Hooker
3《Original Delta Blues》Son House
4《The Complete Live At The Plugged Nickel 1965》Miles Davis
5《Olatunji Concert》John Coltrane
6 《Riley: The Harp Of New Albion》Terry Riley
7 《In Bern》Loren Mazzacane Connors + Jim O’rouke
8 《Semi-Impressionism》秋山徹次+中村としまる
9《For Bunita Marcus by Stephane Ginsburgh》Morton Feldman
10《Dead Pan Smiles》大上流一
我最近爱听的是以下这些音乐，其中一些并不是最近发行的。
《Bending Contumax》Jean-Luc Guionnet
Jean-Luc Guionnet 既是一名萨克斯风手也是一位管风琴手。我最近才知道他。他在2008年到2014年间创作了大量惊人的即兴作品。在其中最初的动机里，我也能明显感受到结构感。
发行于大蔵雅彦运营的 No School Recordings。
《Memoria》赤石拓海
赤石拓海是一名少见的居住于东京的 Hardy Gurdy 乐手。他在这张唱片里以美妙的诗感将 Hardy Gurdy 的声音和田野录音结合了起来。
发行于 Art Into Life，一家位于枥木县的日本唱片店和厂牌。
《Œuvres Électroniques》Eliane Radigue
当我2019年在欧洲巡演的时候，在巴塞尔的Plattfon唱片店买了这套唱片。这是套有14张CD的套盒。你能从中了解她对声音的探索，但也需要时间来听完所有这些音乐！！
提问：我们来聊聊 Straytone 吧。你说你和他有着长期而深度的合作关系。你们在一起演奏多久了？你们合作的基础是什么？和其他音乐人相比，和 Straytone 一起演奏对你而言有什么特殊的意义吗？
我们对音乐和演奏各自有不同的想法。和我相比，Straytone 更注重音乐的语境。我则渐渐对这一点不那么在意了。同时，我觉得自己和他相比更重视即兴。在制作音乐时我们能够互补。
提问：这次发行的磁带让我想起了秋山徹次和中村としまる的二重奏。其实我在第一次看你演出的时候从中发现了秋山的影响。而 Straytone 的声音，我想说和中村现在所做的声音很相近，虽然他们用的设备并不相同。我觉得在磁带里，Straytone 所做的听起来并不像大多数模块合成器乐手所发出声音。你对秋山和中村这两位是怎么看的？你会尝试引用、借鉴或是避免使用这组日本经典二重奏所做的音乐中的想法吗？
我觉得秋山徹次和中村としまる是最重要的即兴乐手。《Semi-Impressionism》是我最早听到的爵士乐之外的即兴音乐。
我对他们的看法是这样的。作为一名吉他手，我特别直接地受秋山徹次的影响。他的伟大之处在于翻转了关于前卫先锋的概念。这就像是一名达达主义者，但所做的东西更根植于自己的直觉和诚实。
中村としまる则是一位在电声即兴场景的文化中非常重要的人物。但他会毫不犹豫地自发突破这种文化，并不断更新自己。每次演出他似乎都在挑战自己，毫不在意外在的东西。
他们的演奏使用通用的语言和技巧，尽管是非常基于个人的兴趣，而不是系统的学院派。他们以这样的态度为那些没有受过音乐教育或没有职业背景的乐手铺平了道路。有着类似概念的乐团过去也有，比如 AMM 和 Musica Elettronica Viva，但他们更多基于西方的价值观或学院传统。
过去，如果我想和别人一起演奏的话，我们必须学习现成的方法和语言，比如爵士、古典或摇滚乐。也许其中也包括“自由即兴”。但他们证明我们可以运用个人化的兴趣、技巧、想法进行演奏，而不是系统的学院派方式或语言。
但这并不意味着不需要学习和练习。
我们身处的环境是我们可以追求各自真正在乎的东西。同时，我们可以在任何国家，在任何音乐背景下，在任何文化环境里通过音乐交流。我们可以在音乐中直接表达个性、交换想法。
提问：这盘磁带的标题是《2527》。这个名字从何而来？
这是一个秘密。
提问：请和我们也说下关于 Permian 的事吧。你能描述下你运营的这个场地吗？它所处的环境以及里面看起来是什么样的？你是什么时候开始运营这个地方的？为什么你想要运营一个“只做即兴”的场地？抱歉我此前从没去过 Permian，但我保证下次一定会去的！
Permian 是从 2018 年开始的，由我、大上流一和其他一些音乐家一起运营的。我们经常会说起，大多数场地提供了许多对于演出来说多余的东西，比如吧台、唱片和背景音乐。我们不会提供任何酒水、食物和背景音乐，而是专注于演出和演奏。所有演出，观众都可以选择支付 1000 到 3000 日元的入场费。通过这种方式，观众可以自己决定这场演出的价值。
场地附近有很多咖啡馆和酒吧，但是在其中找到即兴音乐的观众还挺难的。
即兴是一种原始行为，它是所有表达形式的出发点。它应该向更多的人开放。我希望我们总能在每次演出中从零开始重新把握音乐。
提问：如果一定要选 3 个最喜欢的即兴乐手，你会选谁？
秋山徹次
John Tilbury
John Coltrane
提问：在你出版的《R,R,R》这张专辑的介绍里，里面提到你的一些吉他弹奏带有 John Fahey 的感觉，你自己认同这样的说法吗？John Fahey 的音乐对你的聆听和演奏是否产生过影响？
当然，我听了许多 John Fahey 的唱片。但我几乎从没模仿过他的吉他。和他一样，我深受美国原生音乐（American Primitive）的影响。但我觉得自己和他并不在同一个谱系或语境里。我对传统音乐怀有巨大的敬意，但我对继承这些音乐没有兴趣。这不是我要扮演的角色。
正如之前所说，在弹奏电吉他时，我模仿了许多来自 60 年代摇滚乐队、布鲁斯和爵士乐中的吉他声音。但是我演奏原声吉他的方式几乎是自学的。除了一些布鲁斯外，我几乎从没模仿过别人的演奏方式。有时，我也会在吉他上模仿演奏 Morton Feldman 的钢琴作品。
提问：在演奏时，你的状态更多地是专注，还是放松？你觉得自己在演出、录音间的状态起伏大吗，你更喜欢自己在哪种状态下所做的音乐？
实话实说，我想要放松地演奏。如果我试图去集中注意力的话，就会丧失情感。